Payn FITZJOHN , of Ewyas Sex: M Birth: ABT 1093 in Ewyas, Herefordshire, England Death: 10 JUL 1137 in killed pursuing Welsh marauders by a javelin (dspm) Burial: Gloucester Abbey, Gloucestershire, England 
PAYN FITZJOHN, probably 1st son and heir, was born before 1100. He was one of those minor barons who rose to importance and wealth as officers of Henry I, and from 1120 or earlier he constantly attests royal charters. In 1126 he became the King's vice-gerent in the palatine county of Shropshire. In 1130 he was acting as a Justice in cos. Stafford, Gloucester and Northants, usually in conjunction with Miles of Gloucester. He is said to have built Pain's Castle, co. Radnor; and in 1134 the Welsh burnt his castle of Caus, Salop, and slew all its inmates. At the death of Henry I he was vice-gerent of cos. Hereford and Salop; and he and Miles abovenamed, who ruled co. Gloucester, had extended their power over the Marches from the Severn to the sea. With other officers of the late King they would not go to court without a safe-conduct, fearing that they might be forced to disgorge the wealth which they had accumulated. Eventually they joined Stephen at Reading for the late King's funeral in January 1135/6. At Easter Payn was with Stephen at Westminster and he proceeded with the King to Oxford.

He married Sibyl, daughter of Geoffrey TALBOT, by Agnes, probably daughter of Walter DE LACY. Payn gave Sibyl as dower land from his own inheritance. He was killed when pursuing Welsh marauders by a javelin which pierced his head, and so died s.p.m. 10 July 1137 and was buried in the chapter-house of Gloucester Abbey. Sibyl survived him (j). [Complete Peerage XII/2:270-1, (transcribed by Dave Utzinger)]

(j) Shortly after her husband's death the Bishop of Salisbury, as Chief Justiciar, ordered her to restore the property of her late husband removed by her since the confirmation of his possessions to their elder daughter, Cecily and her husband Roger, son of Miles de Gloucester, in particular the wheat, hay and wine. As Sybil de Lacy, for her soul and for the soul of her lord Pay FitzJohn, she confirmed a grant to her uncle, Walter de Lacy, Abbot of Gloucester.
From jweber site
I07490 Payn FitzJohn , of Ewyas 

The elder son, Paganus, dying s. p., was s. by his brother, Eustace Fitz-John. [Ref: Burke's Extinct, 1883, Clavering, Barons Clavering, p. 121] Note: that should say "dying s.p.m." (died without male issue) as he did have 2 daughters & coheirs of his estates... Curt 

***** 

Payn fitz John and Sybil de Lacy were not allowed to inherit the whole of the honour. Henry I seems to have taken the opportunity provided by the succession of an heiress to reduce in size a dangerously large barony, and to ensure that Payn, useful royal servant though he was, should not become too powerful by adding all the Lacy fee to his own not inconsiderable estates. ..... During the latter half of Henry I's reign, Payn fitz John was a prominent figure in the West Midlands. It has long been thought that he was the sheriff of Herefordshire and Shropshire at the close of the reign. It is also well known that he appeared in company with Miles of Hereford in the Pipe Roll for 1129-30 in such a way as to imply that the two of them had been holding something very like a general eyre in Staffordshire, Gloucestershire, and Pembrokeshire. Payn's origins are not so well known. They afford a good illustration of the way in which a younger son of comparativley obscure origins could rise to a position of considerable importance under Henry I. This obscurity was only comparative: all that can be said of his father John 'Monoculus' is that he was not an important member of the baronage. A measure of his respectability -- or rather acceptability in the eyes of the rest of his contemporaries -- is to be found in the marrige of his sons, Payn, a younger son, married the Lacy heiress. Eustace fitz John, Payn's eldest brother, married Beatrice, the Vesci heiress, and thus inherited through her the honours of Alnwick and Malton. Their son assumed the surname Vesci, it being this William whose sister probably married Henry I de Lacy of Pontefract. By his second marriage Eustace had a son Robert. He in his turn married Aubrey de Lisours, daughter of Aubrey the sister of Ilbert II de Lacy, through whom the Pontefract honour descended in 1194 to Roger de Lacy, grandson of Robert fitz Eustace. Since the king's permission for the marriage of Robert de Lisours with Aubrey de Lacy was only obtained in 1129-30, this family link between the holder of the western Lacy lands and the Pontefract family has little significance for the time of Payn fitz John, save to demonstrate that at least two of the sons of John 'Monoculus' were of sufficient standing to be acceptable husbands for the daughters of major barons. [Ref: Wightman, W.E., _The Lacy Family in England and Normandy 1066-1194_, Oxford Univeristy Press, 1955, pp. 175, 177-178] 

***** 

FITZJOHN, PAIN (d. 1137), judge, was a brother of Eustace FitzJohn. The evidence for this a charter of Henry I (1133) to Cirencester Priory, in which Eustace and William are styled his brothers. He belonged to that official class which was fostered by Henry I. Mr Eyton (_Shropshire_, i. 246-7, ii. 200) holds (on the authority of the 'Shrewsbury Cartulary') that he was given the government of Salop about 1127. In the 'Pipe Roll' of 1130 he is found acting as a justice itinerant in Staffordshire, Gloucestershire, and Northamptonshire, in conjunction with Miles of Gloucester, whose son eventually married his daughter. He is frequently, during the latter part of the reign, found as a witness to royal charters. In 1134 his castle of Caus on the Welsh border was stormed and burnt in his absence by the Welsh (Ord. Vit. v. 37). At the succession of Stephen he was sheriff of Shropshire and Herefordshire. At first he held aloof, but was eventually, with Miles of Gloucester, persmacded by Stephen to join him (_Gesta_, pp. 15, 15). His name is found among the witnesses to Stephen's Charter of LIberties early in 1136 (_Sel. Charters_, p. 114). In the following year, when attacking some Welsh rebels, he was slain (10 July 1137), and his body beign brought to Gloucester, was there buried (_Gesta_, p. 16; -Cont._ Flor. Wig. ii, 98). By a charter granted shortly afterwards (_Duchy of Lancaster_; _Royal Charters_, No. 20) Stephen confirmed his whole possessions to his daughter Cicily, wife of Roger, son of Miles of Gloucester. Dugdale erroneously assigns him Robert Fitzpain as a son. 
[Pipe Roll, 31 Hen. I (Record Comm.); Florence of Worcester (Engl. Hist. Soc.); Gesta Stephani (Rolls Series); Ordericus Vitalis (Soc. de l'Histoire de France); Stubbs's Select Charters; Duchy Charter (Publ. Rec. Office); Cott. MS. Calig. A. vi.; Eyton's Hist. of Shropshire] J. H. R.* [Ref: DNB, Editors, Leslie Stephen & Sidney Lee, MacMillan Co, London & Smith, Elder & Co., NY, 1908, vol. vii, p.184] 

* John Horace Round, M.A., LL.D., author of this article. 

***** 

Payn FitzJohn, probably 1st s. and h.,(e270) was b. before 1100.(f270) He was one of those minor barons who rose to importance and wealth as officers of Henry I,(g270) and from 1120 or earlier he constantly attests royal charters.(h270) In 1126 he became the King's vice-gerent in the palatine county of Shropshire.(i270) In 1130 he was acting as a Justice in cos. Stafford, Gloucester and Northants, usually in conjunction with Miles of Gloucester.(j270) He is said to have built Pain's Castle, co. Radnor;(k270) and in 1134 the Welsh burnt his castle of Caus, Salop, and slew all its inmates.(a271) At the death of Henry I he was vice-gerent of cos. Hereford and Salop; and he and Miles abovenamed, who ruled co. Gloucester, had extended their power over the Marches from the Severn to the sea. With other officers of the late King they would not go to court without a safe-conduct, fearing that they might be forced to disgorge the wealth which they had accumulated.(b271) Eventually they joined Stephen at Reading for the late King's funeral in Jan. 1135/6.(c271) At Easter Payn was with Stephen at Westminster and he proceeded with the King to Oxford.(d271) He m. Sibyl,(e271) da. of Geoffrey Talbot, by Agnes, probably da. of Walter de Lacy.(f271) Payn gave Sibyl as dower land from his own inheritance.(g271) He was killed when pursuing Welsh marauders by a javelin which pierced his head,(h271) and so d. s.p.m. 10 July 1137 and was bur. in the chapter-house of Gloucester Abbey.(i271) Sibyl survived him.(j271) 

(e270) A charter of Henry I for Cirencester of 1133 is attested by Payn FitzJohn, Eustace and William his brothers (Farrer, _op. cit._, no. 704), and Payn is named before Eustace in two of Henry's charters for St. Mary, York (Dugdale, _Mon._, vol. iii, p. 585). On the other hand a charter of 1133 for Rievaulx is attested by Eustace FitzJohn and Payn his brother (Farrer, _op. cit._, no. 679), which might be due to the fact of Eustace being a Yorkshire magnate. 
(f270) This statement is based on the date when he began to witness Henry I's charters and on the _data_ relating to his br. Eustace; cf. p. 272, note "b" below*. 
(g270) Cf. Stenton, _First Century of English Feudalism_, p. 35; those minor barons must not be confused with the new men whom Henry I raised as from the dust to be his ministers (Orderic, _Hist. Eccles._, ed. Le Prévost, vol. iv, p. 164). 
(h270) Farrer, _op. cit._, nos. 342, 402 _et passim_; _Fœdera_, vol. i, p. 10; Round, _Cal. Docs. France_, nos. 288, 609, 610, 1389. He also attests a charter of Stephen, Count of Mortain, afterwards King (_Idem_, no. 378). 
(i270) In succession to Bishop Richard de Belmeis (Eyton, _Antiq. of Shropshire_, vol. i, pp. 246-47; vol. ii, p. 200). 
(j270) _Pipe Roll_, 31 Hen. I, pp. 74, 78, 95, 136. Miles was later cr. Earl of Hereford and his s. Roger m. Payn's da. Cecily. 
(k270) _Hist. Mon. Com._, co. Radnor, p. 64. 
(a271) Orderic, vol. v, p. 43. 
(b271) _Gesta Stephani_, Rolls Ser., pp. 15, 16; and in Med. Texts edn., pp. 15, 16. 
(c271) Round, _Geoffrey de Mandeville_, pp. 11-12. 
(d271) _Idem_, p. 263. 
(e271) Round, _Ancient Charters_ (P.R.S.), no. 22. 
(f271) Ante, vol. ix, pp. 424-25.*** 
(g271) Round, _Ancient Charters_, no. 21. The words _de hereditate sua_ are translated, ante, vol. ix, p. 425, "of her inheritance"; but although in medieval Latin _suus_ might be used for _ejus_, in this passage it seems to mean "his own." 
(h271) Paganus dum Walenses persequitur, solus inter suos, missili capite transtorato, succubuit (_Gesta Stephani, ut supra_, p. 16); capite perforatus lancea (John of Worcester, ed. Weaver, _Anecdota Oxon._, p. 43); cf. John of Hexham, Rolls Ser., p. 287; Richard of Hexham, Rolls Ser., p. 146, who says that the Welsh killed Payn _insidiose_, so there may have been an ambush. 
(j271) Shortly after her husband's death the Bishop of Salisbury, as Chief Justiciar, ordered her to restore the property of her late husband removed by her since the confirmation of his possessions to their elder da., Cecily and her husband Roger, s. of Miles de Gloucester, in particular the wheat, hay and wine (Round, _Ancient Charters_, no. 22). As Sybil de Lacy, for her soul and for the soul of her lord Pay FitzJohn, she confirmed a grant to her uncle (_avunculo meo_), Walter de Lacy, Abbot of Gloucester (Ante, vol. ix, p. 424***). [Ref: CP:XII/2:270-1] 

* This statement is based on (i) the date when he began to witness royal charters; and (ii) the fact that when he d. in 1157 he is described as _grandaevus (see p. 274, note "d" below**. [Ref: CP XII/2:272(b) sub Eustace FitzJohn] 

** Will. of Newburgh, _Hist. Rer. Angl._ (Rolls Ser.), vol. i, p. 108; Eyton, _op. cit._, p. 28. Vir summae prudentiae et in saecularibus negotiis magni consilii (Ailred of Rievaulx, p. 191); Vir magnus et grandaevus atque inter primos Angliae proceres divitiarum et sapientiae titulis refulgens (Will. of Newburgh, _loc. cit._). By his first wife he had only a s. Richard FitzEustace, who d. (probably) v.p., leaving a s. John, who succeeded Richard's stepfather as Constable of Chester (_Hatton's Book of Seals_, no. 515, note). That Richard FitzEustace was the father of Roger FitzRichard, lord of Warkworth, 2nd husband of Alice de Vere, was proved to be a fallacy by Round in Essex Arch. Soc., _Trans._, N.S., vol. iii, p. 248. [Ref: CP XII/2:274(d) sub Eustace FitzJohn] 

*** _Note_.-The Editors are indebted to M. W. Hughes for being able to suggest that Sybil, wife of Payn Fitz John, was daughter of Geoffrey Talbot by [? Agnes] his wife, sister of Roger, Hugh and Walter de Lacy. 
As Sybil de Lacy, for her soul and the soul of her lord Payn Fitz John, she confirmed to Walter de Lacy, Abbot of Gloucester (1130-39), _avunculo meo_, the land of Leghe next the church of St. Michael of Ewias, which Harold de Ewias gave in alms to the monks of Gloucester (St. Clair Baddeley, _A Cotteswold Manor_, and edn., p. 48, citing the cartulary of Ewias). In 1137 or 1138 King Stephen confirmed to Roger, son of Miles of Gloucester and Cicely his wife, da. of Payn Fitz John, all the land that her father had inherited or acquired, and all her marriage portion which Payn gave his daughter to the Honour of Hugh de Lacy, and all he gave to his wife Sybil in dower of her inheritance (_de hereditate sua) so that she shall hold it of Roger and Cicely (see Hereford). These evidences account for the passing of some portion of the Honor of Lacy, upon the death of the said Cicely, Countess of Hereford, without issue, to William de Munchensy, grandson and heir of her sister Agnes; but later the fee or Honor of Walter de Mayenne), with its _caput_ at Swanscombe in Kent, and fees in Kent, Bucks and Essex. A clue is furnished by a grant to Beham Priory by _Walter de Maena et Cecilia Talbot uxor ejus_, which Cicely is identified by a later entry in the same cartulary as _Cecilia comitissa de Hereford_ (B.M., Stow MS. 924, ff. 63, 63 d). In 1166 the _carta_ of Walter de Mayenne stated to the King that he held [1 Dec. 1135] it was held by Geoffrey Talbot (_Red Book of the Exchequer_, vol. i, p. 195). The descent is only indicated by shadows of facts, but these suggest the following pedigree, which is not inconsistent with anything found in collecting material for this article. 
[In this part of the footnote are two pedigree charts that, because of the limitations of this medium. I here convert to Henry #'s...CH] 
Chart 1: 
1. Hugh de Lacy 
1.1a. Walter de Lacy m1. Emma 
1.1a.1. Roger, banished 1096. 
1.1a.2. Hugh II, d. s.p., 1121. m. Adeliz. 
1.1a.3. Walter Abbot of Gloucester 1130-39. 
1.1a.4. Emma. 
1.1a.4.1.Gilbert, took name of Lacy. 
1.1b. Walter de Lacy m2. Ermelina. 
Chart 2: 
1. Agnes m. Geoffrey Talbot. 
1.1. Geoffrey Talbot, d. 1140. 
1.2. Sybil, as _domini filia_ witnessed grant of her father Geoffrey Talbot and his wife Agnes, m. Payn Fitz John. 
1.2.1a. Cicely, d.s.p. m1. Roger, s. of Miles of Gloucester, Earl of Hereford. 
1.2.1b. Cicely, d.s.p. m2. Walter de Mayenne. 
1.2.2.Agnes m. Warin de Munchensy. 
Geoffrey Talbot the elder d. presumably 1129-30, because at Mich. 1130 Geoffrey Talbot rendered account of 200 marks of silver for his father's land, and Agnes, wife of Geoffrey Talbot, owed 2 marks of gold for her dower and marriage (_Pipe Roll_, 31 Hen. I, p. 67). Between 1108 and 1126 Geoffrey, with his wife Agnes and their son Geoffrey, had made an agreement with the Abbot of Chichester as to the advowson of the church of Thorington, Essex; and Geoffrey and Agnes granted land in Vange to the abbey-a grant witnessed by _Sibilla domini filia_ (_Cart. Mon. Sci. Joh. Bapt. de Colecestria_, Roxburghe Club, pp. 546, 142). Geoffrey Talbot, bar[on], [the son] was among the witnesses to a charter of Stephen at a general Easter Council at Westminster (_Cart. of Bath Priory_, Somerset Rec. Soc., p. 58). In 1138 Geoffrey Talbot [the son] with his _cognatus_ Gilbert de Lacy was fighting against Stephen in the West; he d. of his wounds, 22 Aug. 1140 (Orderic, vol. v, p. 112; _Chron. of Stephen_, &c., Rolls Ser., vol. iii, pp. 37-39, 41, 68; Florence of Worcester, vol. ii, p. 128). From Walter de Mayenne's expression in describing the tenure of the Honor of Talbot, it would seem that Stephen had conferred upon him, possibly for his life, the forfeited lands of Geoffrey Talbot the son. After Walter's death his widow was at first charged scutage on all the 29 fees of the Honor (see Hereford), but in Mich. 1196 the scutage was assessed in equal moieties upon the Countess of Hereford, and William de Munchensy (son of her sister Agnes) jointly (_Pipe Roll_, 8 Ric. I, p. 96, and later Rolls), from which it is to be inferred that Cicely's share was not derived from her husband William de Mayenne; moreover, in 1207 William de Munchensy, s. and h. of the abovesaid William, was restored to all the fees which the Countess held _hereditarie_ (_R. Lit. Claus._, vol. i, p. 81). Sybil, mother of the Countess Cicely and of Agnes, wife of Warin de Munchensy, was, it is submitted, almost surely the _Sibilla Domini filia_ above referred to, i.e. da. of Geoffrey Talbot by his wife Agnes (very probably a Lacy, since her son Geoffrey was _cognatus_ of Gilbert de Lacy), and Sybil would, but for Geoffrey's rebellion and the grant to Walter de Mayenne, have been herself, or in her issue, her brother's heir. That Sybil (born Talbot) and Cicely, da. of Payn Fitz John, styled themselves in dealing respectively with Lacy and Talbot property Sybil de Lacy and Cicely Talbot is in consonance with the practices of the time, as is shown in the case of the Lucy family of Ongar, where Maud, Sarah and Isabel, all born Beauchamp, style themselves in their grants and pleadings in respect of Lucy property _de Luci_ (_Essex Arch. Soc. Trans._, vol. xx, pp. 103-106). As Cicely _Talbot_ the Countess of Hereford confirmed [1148-79] a grant of Roger de Stanton to St. Peter's, Gloucester (_Hist. et. Cart. S. Petri Glouc._, Rolls Ser., vol. i, p. 73), and as late as the summer of 1205, as Cicely _Talbot_, she is said to have been in unjust possession of ½ the ferry of Merston (in Shorne), a Talbot fee (_Curia Regis Rolls_, vol. iv, p. 17; _Book of Fees_, p. 679; _Arch. Cantiana_, vol. x, p. 145). [Ref: CP IX:424-6, note at end of articles sub Munchensy] 

Regards, 
Curt
From Curt Hofemann on jweber site